L2 Learners - Declarative vs Procedural Knowledge

[Admin]

Very interesting! The video explained this complex concept in a very efficient way!
I agree with the conclusion that what learners are taught as rules is not what they know & use in communicative contexts. I had a very good example of this with one student who could communicate with great ease and fluency, who would naturally use some complex grammatical forms in a way we would consider 'correct', and others not so 'correctly' but effectively, nonetheless. However, he struggled massively in actual grammar class and in quizzes I could see him whisper to himself and make helpful hand gestures while struggling to think of and apply the rules. He clearly did not assimilate what he was taught formally, but had great command of the language and I was convinced would have no problem communicating. I wish we didn't have to test students in such ways (e.g. in this institution teachers were required to give a weekly quiz...), nor teach rules prescriptively. I recognize there has been some departure from this in the form of inductive learning, but in too many cases there is still the expectation and sort of built-in sense of obligation to teach rules. Thoughts?

[Admin]

By the way, this just reminded me of something professor & SLA expert Bill VanPatten always says: "What's on page 32 is not what winds up in learners' minds/brains". He's got 2 great SLA podcasts (but essentially they are one) if anyone wants to give him a listen (he's quite entertaining too): Tea with BVP & Talking L2 with BVP.

[sameerco1971]

It is better to learn and use at the same time. These two processes must parallel side by side. If the students spend ten years learning without using the language, they will probably lose all the information stored in their brains. Therefore, learning and using the language is an ongoing process to the end of their lives.

[Kunlong Jin]

One thing related to this is the connected speech. In a common L2 English class, teachers teach beginner level students word by word, syllable to syllable to pronounce each word and phrase because it is the, in fact, the phonetic symbols shows. How many syllables are there in a word? Which part of the syllables have got the strong and weak syllable. This is so called prescriptive grammar and the standard way of speaking English. However in a real world, people will surprisingly find that it is not the case. In particular, native speakers speak the different way as they are taught and learn in the classroom. For example, the weak forms of saying the word 'and'. English is a stressed timed language, and in trying to make the intervals between stressed syllables equal, to give the phrase rhythm, people tend to swallow non-essential words. Thus, conjunctions, pronouns, prepositions, auxiliaries and articles are often lost, causing comprehension problems for beginner-level learners, particularly for those whose language is syllable timed.
fish and chips (fish´n chips)
a chair and a table (a chair ´n a table)

[Daniel Palmer]

Very interesting concept. It seems to me that these processes are mutually-shaping, and as such need to be practiced simultaneously for optimum learning.

[erenkenny]

I agree with the video but how can you explain if someone has already learned the rules of English before h/she actually acquired fluency? in this case has declarative knowledge become procedural knowledge? I learned English as a foreign language then moved to the English speaking country. My English has changed a lot regarding fluency. Although I know 'me and my mum are going ....', I wouldn't use it that way at all. Is this because I learned that way and can't replace  it? or something else?

[abdisyam]

I agree with maximising the language attainment through both processes. I think that procedural and declarative knowledge serve different function. As a NNS, I feel that the grammar that I learn in the class is really useful when I am doing proof reading especially on other's writing, but it is useless when I am writing an essay myself as I keep making mistakes on grammar rules that I have already learned.

One interesting point from the video is that declarative knowledge can be automatised through repetition, and perhaps it can become a procedural knowledge. It makes sense that it might be easier if we are studying English in an English speaking country where we can get repetitive input while in EFL context, it might be more challenging.

[andrea scabbia]

Very interesting!

[Tom Le Seelleur Lisburn, NI]

The knowledge we have about how the brain works is still at a basic level and neurologists are 'guessing' what they think is happening - it is a plausable idea of how our environment first at home and then at school can mould how we learn and develop our language. Whether in time we find out whether the theories of how the brain works are real will tell once more is learned.

[evarojo]

May 12, 2020 17:07:17 GMT Admin said:

Very interesting! The video explained this complex concept in a very efficient way!
I agree with the conclusion that what learners are taught as rules is not what they know & use in communicative contexts. I had a very good example of this with one student who could communicate with great ease and fluency, who would naturally use some complex grammatical forms in a way we would consider 'correct', and others not so 'correctly' but effectively, nonetheless. However, he struggled massively in actual grammar class and in quizzes I could see him whisper to himself and make helpful hand gestures while struggling to think of and apply the rules. He clearly did not assimilate what he was taught formally, but had great command of the language and I was convinced would have no problem communicating. I wish we didn't have to test students in such ways (e.g. in this institution teachers were required to give a weekly quiz...), nor teach rules prescriptively. I recognize there has been some departure from this in the form of inductive learning, but in too many cases there is still the expectation and sort of built-in sense of obligation to teach rules. Thoughts?

I could not agree more with the conclusion, but how do we act as English teachers now? Should I carry on teaching grammar rules knowing that my students will not be using most of them in their English utterances? Everytime I have shared the idea that the English they learn is different from the one they will use their reaction is obvious, so why do we learn it? I normally use humour in the answer, to pay my salary. Many students are aware of this and show no interest in the English lesson. I have always tried to give them the opportunity of meaningful usage of English though I also have to follow the syllabus and based my teaching on the coursebook.  

I have students who are marvellous in academic English but are not able to be fluent in spoken English.

[marian]

I absolutely agree with the conclusion of the video. The main purpose of learning a foreign language is being able to communicate with others, to interact in environments where your L1 is unknown. Therefore, if your grammar is not "perfect", it doesn't mean people cannot understand you.
However, most of the times we, teachers, are guiding students on their way towards an exam, and we see ourselves forced to correct all the mistakes so that their production (especially in writing) shows they know the rules of "Standard English".

[Amaryllis]

I think the extent to which this is true depends on what they are being taught, the level/age they are at and what they will use English for. But overall, I do agree that L2 learners will shape what they’ve learnt into their ‘own English’.



The video mentioned that declarative and procedural knowledge are both left hemisphere functions. I’ve often wondered if there isn’t some right hemisphere activity involved in effective L2 learning too…?

[tony]

Much of what has been said in the comment section resonates with me either. I very much agree that grammar rules are important, but they should not be taught at the expense of the actual communication, i.e. it is vital for teachers to find a way to strike a proper balance between accuracy and fluency in an ESL classroom.
The video is quite helpful and inspirational in a way: I came up with an idea that perhaps as long as learners translate words or sentences from L1 to L2 and vice versa in their head, the knowledge will belong to their declarative memory; nonetheless, the moment they begin to actually think in L2, then it must become a part of their procedural memory.

[Ulla]

Input does not equal intake... I think it is important to respect the processes that shape a learner's language. We can also help them engage with the input - they interact so much online and consume media etc. We should bring this into the classroom to make sure they don't think of their lessons as irrelevant to the way they actually use English.

[miabae]

While I found the video really edutaining, I have three words for you: practice makes perfect. It's practice that brings in automation and increases fluency.